The Power Transformation Podcast
The Power Transformation Podcast hosted by Alethea Felton, celebrates the resilience, determination, and hope of entrepreneurs, thought leaders, and visionaries who have conquered adversity and various challenges to create meaningful lives.
With her own inspiring journey of living with autoimmune disease since birth (and now thriving), overcoming severe stuttering, and more, Alethea's authenticity adds depth to intimate conversations with her guests who have overcome extraordinary obstacles.
Alethea's heart-centered, introspective, and engaging style elevates this podcast into a movement that inspires listeners to embrace their inner strength, cultivate empowerment, and rise wiser, stronger, and more courageous to achieve their next level of success.
The Power Transformation Podcast
101. Transforming Teams & Cultures Through Conscious Leadership with Vanessa Judelman
What if your leadership could inspire trust, empathy, and lasting positive change? In this episode, Vanessa Judelman, an expert leadership coach, author, and talent management consultant:
- Explores the transformative power of conscious leadership,
- Shares her journey from leaving a corporate career to becoming an entrepreneur, founding Mosaic People Development,
- Reveals how self-awareness, emotional intelligence, and compassion can reshape entire organizations,
- and more…
Packed with practical insights and real-world examples, this conversation is a must-listen for leaders who want to cultivate thriving, high-trust teams and embrace a growth mindset for lasting success.
Connect with Vanessa:
Episode 101's Affirmation:
I lead with integrity, transparency, and a deep commitment to the well-being of others.
NOTE FOR APPLE PODCAST USERS:
- Unfortunately, Apple Podcasts does not show underlined hyperlinks anymore for you to connect with the guests. Therefore, follow these instructions to go to the various websites listed above:
- If you are listening on your phone, take your thumb and press down on each of the words above (Website, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram). When you do that, then you are able to visit each link.
- If you are listening to this episode on your iPad or MacBook, hover over the words above (Website, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram), and a hand icon will appear. Then you are able to visit each link.
- Thanks for being a part of The Power Transformation Podcast community!
New episodes are released every Wednesday, so follow to not miss an episode.
- Want to be a guest on The Power Transformation Podcast? Send Alethea Felton a message on PodMatch, here.
Hey y'all, welcome to another episode of the Power Transformation Podcast. I'm your host, lethea Felton, and today's guest is someone spectacular, none other than Vanessa Udelman. She is a wife, a mother, an entrepreneur and so much more, but in the world of entrepreneurship, she is not only a leadership coach and executive leadership advisor and author, but she leads consciously, she emphasizes and focuses on conscious leadership. She is the president of Mosaic People Development and for well over 20 years, vanessa has been helping clients to develop leaders who inspire great results. She is the person who provides leaders with the skills, tools and confidence to lead with impact. But, as I said earlier, she's a conscious leader, and conscious leadership is a whole other level of leading which does guide people to great transformation. So I am so excited that Vanessa is going to share her own transformational journey of what even took her to this space she's in.
Alethea Felton:Now we're going to go ahead and start with our affirmation, and what I'll do is I'll say the affirmation once, you repeat it, and then we'll dive on in with Vanessa. And you know what else? Don't forget, share this episode with five people that you know. This podcast still ranks in the top 5% of podcasts globally, and it's because we're changing lives and it takes guests like Vanessa, but it also takes listeners and followers like you. So, before you do anything else, share this with five people you know. Let's go ahead and say the affirmation I lead with integrity, transparency and a deep commitment to the well-being of others. It is so exciting to have this guest today and, as you could hear from the introduction, she has such a wealth of knowledge, insight, expertise. Vanessa Judelman, I am so happy to have you on the Power Transformation Podcast. Welcome.
Vanessa Judelman:Thank you, it's wonderful to be here with you.
Alethea Felton:Thank you so much, and this is a conversation. This is just a time for us to not only know more about each other although we have spoken offline prior to this podcast but so that our listeners and our audience can learn even more about you. But what we're going to be talking about today is definitely transformative and so empowering. But before we get into that, I always like to start off with just a fun icebreaker question, random question, just so that we can get to know you more. Okay, so this is your icebreaker question, so that we can get to know you more. Okay, so this is your icebreaker question Window seat or aisle seat?
Vanessa Judelman:when it comes to an airplane, has to be an aisle seat. Okay, because I am five foot 10. And many years ago I had a skiing accident and I tore my ACL and my MCL in both knees at the same time and I had double knee surgery. So I have long legs that need to stretch into that aisle. So a hundred percent aisle seat only for me.
Alethea Felton:That makes total sense, and you're a 5'10". I'm an inch shorter than you. I'm 5'9", so, yes, the tall people's issues I do understand. So thank you for sharing that. Now, before we go more in depth with this, I'm doing something a little different with my guests. Instead of asking you to share all of your contact info at the end, I'm actually putting that more upfront, because with podcasts, sometimes people play them, walk off, come back. So off of the gate, vanessa, how can people reach you if they want to connect with you more after this episode?
Vanessa Judelman:Okay, well, I have a website. My business is called Mosaic People Development. I'm a leadership consultant and coach, so you can go onto wwwmosaicpdfor peopledevelopmentcom and find everything you need there.
Alethea Felton:Yes, indeed, and I will also have all of your information in the description and show notes. So this is the million dollar question for you. Who is Vanessa Udelman?
Vanessa Judelman:Wow, it's funny when people ask that question because I think we all play so many different roles, so I always wonder do I go into role like I'm a mom? I have two teenage sons. It's actually my husband and my 19th wedding anniversary today, oh, that's right, you told me happy anniversary.
Vanessa Judelman:Thank you. So we're going out for a nice dinner tonight. So I wear I have the role of wife, of mom, of entrepreneur. I love being an entrepreneur. I when I you know as a leadership consultant and coach. I worked in corporate for 15 years before I ran my own business and so I I love being in the corporate world for so many reasons. I learned so much.
Vanessa Judelman:But there was also a lot of darkness in the corporate world. There was a lot, you know leaders who weren't respectful I. The reason I left the corporate world is because I had the worst leader of my life. It was actually a bit of a bully, if I really need to be honest with you and she pushed me out. And it was good, because I don't know if I would have left my cushy job in the corporate world to start my own business, even though it was always my vision and my dream. And I love being an entrepreneur and I really consider myself an entrepreneur. I love wearing many hats, I love building things, so I consider myself a builder. I consider myself a reader, I'm a lifelong learner and I really love sushi.
Alethea Felton:Oh, I love sushi too, Vanessa. So look, one of these days when we meet in person, we'll have to go and eat sushi. I love sushi. Oh my gosh, I really do enjoy sushi, and sometimes people don't understand it, but don't knock it till you try it. It is delicious, it really is. And you said you're a reader. Now, although you are an entrepreneur, you have corporate background. When you say you are a reader, are you more of a nonfiction reader, a fiction reader or a combo of both?
Vanessa Judelman:100% a combo of both. Okay, so right now I can show you I'm reading this great book called CEO Excellence, and it's the six mindsets that distinguish the best leaders from the rest. So it's interesting because I remember a couple of years ago I was on the subway in Toronto I live in Toronto and I bumped into a friend of mine and I was reading a leadership book and she said why are you reading a leadership book Like? You're a leadership consultant and coach, you're an expert, you've written your own book about leadership. But to me, I'm so passionate about the industry I'm in, I always want to learn more. So in the area of nonfiction, it's typically about business or leadership, because I'm so interested about best practices and mindset and what makes a good leader and how to develop organizational culture and change.
Vanessa Judelman:And I just love it. I find it so interesting.
Alethea Felton:And I think a key point that you said earlier was about being a lifelong learner and that what some people may not realize is that those of us in knowledge and skills so that we're sharp, but also so that we can share that info with others and so I do appreciate the fact that you are such a reader and that you're doing your best to stay on top of what you already know and to add to your skill set. So, thank you, thank you for that. Now, when we talk about you as a leader, how in the world did you decide years ago that you even wanted to enter the corporate realm? Tell us a little bit about your background and what led you down that road.
Vanessa Judelman:Sure. So I went to university college in Montreal, at a university called McGill, and I was an English major there. Because I love to read and, wow, I can actually get a degree for reading books. Why doesn't everybody do this? This is the absolute best, and you learn so much about history and culture through reading, right? It's always every book you read is a lens into someone else's life, which I love. And so at the end of my degree my mom, who is a teacher, said Well, what are you going to do with your life? What are you going to do with an English degree? Right? So she was a teacher. So she said you best go to Teachers College. So I went to Teachers College, I got my diploma.
Vanessa Judelman:So that was my second degree in education, and at the time that I graduated there weren't a lot of jobs for for teachers. So I I did get a job working in a program for at-risk youth and I really enjoyed that. But at the I started getting like a lot of binders thrown at my head. I thought, oh, okay, this is a little intense for me, you think, if I'm built for this. And then I met somebody.
Vanessa Judelman:I was volunteering in an organization and I met somebody at a training and consulting firm. So she worked in adult education and she happened to mention that she just got promoted and I said tell me more, who's replacing you? She said they're hiring right now. Would you like me to put you forward for an interview? I said absolutely so. I got a job started at the bottom. I was in my twenties. I was the assistant to the vice president of consulting and I worked there for 10 years and I worked my way up. I moved from the assistant to someone in sales, to a junior consultant, to a senior consultant position. So I just found my niche. I was so lucky.
Alethea Felton:Yeah, and that's quite remarkable that you still found something that you enjoyed, and although you weren't able to work necessarily in a traditional school, what I'm glad about is that you at least had the experience to work with you to know whether or not this is what you really wanted to do for the rest of your life, and so, although you had the experience, it had its moments when you enjoyed it. Of course, you don't want to do anything that's going to put your bodily and physical self at risk, so I do applaud you, though, for the work that you did do so in that being with that, rather being said, what was a pivotal moment in your career that significantly shaped your approach to leadership development to leadership development.
Vanessa Judelman:Well, I would say a couple. I mean two. One is really that pivot from staying in education, staying with my passion and moving from working with youth to working with adults, I feel like that was my destiny to work with adults, to bring more light to the corporate world, as leaders set the tone. Leaders make or break people's experience at work. So I feel like that was my destiny to be working with adults. So it was. It was that switch. And then the second one is I had, when I worked at this training consulting firm.
Vanessa Judelman:I'd had a lot of great leaders there, but over the years I have had in corporate two really really bad leaders and those people, while it was really challenging to work for them at the time, were pivotal because I learned how not to lead.
Vanessa Judelman:I learned what it feels like to work for a leader who doesn't value you, who doesn't build you up, who doesn't care about you, who cares more about the bottom line than people. So, having those two leaders over the 15 years of working in corporate, before that I always thought, oh, anyone can get along with anyone, you just have crucial conversations and build high trust and come from a place of integrity. And then I learned, no, that's not true, you can come from that place, but the other person is not. There's a misalignment there in terms of your intentions, and so that's what really made me say, okay, I don't want anyone else to have the experience that I had working for these two leaders, who really were very soul-sucking, and so I tell those stories to leaders all the time I say do you want to be that person?
Vanessa Judelman:And so that's a little bit. When you mentioned earlier about how we're going to talk about what it means to be a conscious leader, yes, a lot of my journey now is to really help leaders understand. You know your actions and behavior actually make or break people's experience at work. That's the truth.
Alethea Felton:So that's a very good segue, because this is what I was going to ask. Next is that you do a lot of work centered around conscious leadership. For a person who has never heard of the term, or heard of conscious leadership but aren't quite sure what it is, tell us in layman's terms, what exactly is conscious leadership?
Vanessa Judelman:terms. What exactly is conscious leadership, Right? So my definition of conscious leadership is being conscious of how your thoughts, actions and behavior impact yourself and the people around you. So that's it.
Alethea Felton:Very simple. It's not as difficult or challenging as it may sound interesting interesting point it's.
Vanessa Judelman:It's actually a simple definition but harder to implement. It takes years to be that conscious leader because I feel like in the corporate world there's a lot of pressure. You know people have objectives and they're working with. You know have to do more with less, and so I'm on the treadmill all the time, and so I have to be able to pause and say okay, I'm on the treadmill, I'm feeling stressed out. Where do I go under stress? So, for example, that's one component of being a conscious leader is understanding where do I go under stress. So, for example, that's one component of under being a conscious leader is understanding where do I go under stress. Do I introvert under stress? Do I extrovert under stress if I go into my cave under stress?
Alethea Felton:what are?
Vanessa Judelman:the implications of that to my team. Sometimes it's really good because you give people space. Yes, sometimes, sometimes it's not good. So every work style has strengths and weaknesses, and when you overuse your strengths they become weaknesses right. So if you go into your cave, how does that? Sometimes, if you overuse it, become a weakness? You're not having crucial conversations with people, you're not being vulnerable with people, you're not giving constructive feedback when necessary.
Vanessa Judelman:Okay, so the flip side. Let's take someone who extroverts, like myself. Right, I under stress, you know what I'm thinking and feeling all the time. So how is that good? Well, it's good because people know what I'm thinking and feeling. I can say I'm feeling stressed right now, can we talk about that? Or I'm feeling uncomfortable right now. Or I'm feeling stressed right now, can we talk about that? Or I'm feeling uncomfortable right now. Or I'm feeling a little anxious right now, can we talk about that? But the downside I overuse that strength of being a very good, authentic, vulnerable communicator is sometimes I just get mad and sometimes I just, you know, might say something that's inappropriate, and so I need to slow down or walk around the block or take those deep breaths. So that's what being a conscious leader is all about.
Alethea Felton:And was it through the experience of that boss, who was more of a bully boss, that led you down that path, what sparked your actual journey for this discovery and then implementation of conscious leadership even in your own workplaces?
Vanessa Judelman:Yeah, I would definitely say it was having those negative experiences that made me say, honestly, I don't want anyone to have that experience. And where do we spend most of our time? We spend most of our time at work, and so what I've learned and realized over the years is if I can impact one leader, it has a ripple effect. Just like I know you've worked with youth over your career and with teachers over your career.
Vanessa Judelman:You know that one youth or those that one teacher has a ripple effect, right. So that's yeah. So that's my journey with a leader and a lot of the leaders I work with and I teach them to be conscious of their actions, thoughts and behaviors and how they impact themselves and the people around them. It ripples into their home lives too. We'll say, oh, I had this conversation with my wife about what we taught, what we learned in our leadership class Amazing, right. Or I had this conversation with my kids Amazing. So I always say to people everything I share with you in this leadership program, please share it with your team, share it with your husband, share it with your wife, your husband, right, because it does, it's just, it's really. I mean, the tools that you learn as a leader are actually life skills?
Alethea Felton:They are, yes, and you can apply them in multiple arenas as well. Mm-hmm. Now, what do you say to the not skeptic? But say to the leader who has more of a traditional style of leading, who may hear you and say well, I'm a conscious leader, but I respect what you do as a leader, but it's not the same thing. So, in that case, what distinguishes a conscious leader from a traditional leader? What are some of those characteristics and traits? Well, it's really knowledge.
Vanessa Judelman:It's knowledge and understanding. So when I work with those leaders it's funny. I actually sometimes as an executive coach. People choose to have an executive coach. Sometimes they're told they have to have an executive coach. People choose to have an executive coach, sometimes they're told they have to have an executive coach. So I had somebody recently who was told he needed to work with an executive coach, a very unconscious leader. So the first time I met with him, we met over Zoom. His arms were crossed, his eyes were rolled, he was very close, so I used humor. I said to him okay, so I know we're forced to work together. Let's just have a laugh about that on a scale of one to 10. How much do you want to have this hour together today? He's like a two. I go great. So, like, just be honest, have a good sense of humor and I use I always, interestingly enough, start with research and data. So I'll use books like I don't know if you've heard of the Speed of Trust by Stephen MR Covey.
Alethea Felton:I've read some of his books not that one, though.
Vanessa Judelman:So Stephen Covey, who wrote the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.
Alethea Felton:This is his son, stephen MR Covey, who wrote this book. Oh, I see, okay, thank you, I did not realize that. Okay, yeah.
Vanessa Judelman:So that's a book that's seeking research, right. So I'll start with the reaches. Let's say okay, I've heard, for example, that you don't have a high trust team right now. Would you agree with that, yes or no? That's what I've been told. That's why we're here to build a high trust team. So let's define it. What does the research say about high trust teams? So I'll use some data, for example, like did you know that the research indicates that organizations that are high trust outperform their competition from a bottom line perspective by almost 300%.
Alethea Felton:I can see that.
Vanessa Judelman:Building the business case for why trust is not fluffy. It's good for business. So that's how I start. With leaders like that, I actually find the buy-in very often through data and research. That's why I read books like this. Right, see your excellence based on research.
Alethea Felton:And in terms of that specific client that you worked with, what was the outcome of it? Was he more open to you near the end of the coaching?
Vanessa Judelman:Absolutely. That's my job as an executive coach is I have to build trust. You know me. They've been forced to work with me, so I have to build trust. So how do I do that? I do that by being really respectful, by listening a lot, by being vulnerable myself. I'll share stories I had.
Vanessa Judelman:For example, I had a client yesterday, one of my coaching clients, who said to me Yesterday, one of my coaching clients who said to me Vanessa, I'm feeling really frazzled today. I would really love for you to help me to figure out how to, how to focus. I have a lot going on in my personal life right now and I'm really struggling to focus at work. And I said you know what. I know how you feel. I lost both of my parents last year. I know what it's like to work when your personal life is up in arms. Things are over the top, out of control. So I shared that with him. He didn't share anything with me about what was happening in his personal life. I just feel like if I can be a real person and say I understand life could be hard sometimes. He opened up so much just by me mentioning that and I did it really authentically. I wasn't doing it, you know to, to force him to open up. I was just saying I get it. I'm a person, you're a person, I feel you.
Alethea Felton:And here's, here's what my experience was.
Vanessa Judelman:And I really understand and empathize. I think it's that empathy and compassion that I can show as a coach, and I think empathy and compassion actually you asked me a question about leadership traits empathy and compassion are underrated and empathy and compassion are different. They are, they're different and I think you need both as a leader.
Alethea Felton:What is your? How do you explain the difference between empathy and compassion?
Vanessa Judelman:To me, empathy is about being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes and say I empathize. I understand how you feel. Compassion is taking action. There's that action component of it. So let's say, someone is struggling, Empathy is I'm really sorry. I lost my parents last year and I know how you feel. I really empathize with that. Compassion is taking a next step. Let's say this was my direct report. I might say do you need some time off? You know what. Take off the rest of the week. You know what. Take off the rest of the week. Yeah. So what about you? I'm curious Do you have definitions of yes.
Alethea Felton:So I think empathy is definitely when you feel and somewhat understand what another person is experiencing. And when I say understand, I use that lightly because, although I have both of my parents say, for example, hypothetically, if I didn't, I still think people have to be careful, especially in grief, to say I understand what you're going through, because we all still have that own experience for ourselves. But I think empathy shows that I've been in a similar situation. I'm a human being and I genuinely care and I feel for what you are going through. That's what I think empathy is Compassion. I do think compassion is you feel for that person and you want to help change something in that situation to make it for the better.
Alethea Felton:So I think both of us have the same understanding of it. And the reason I asked you for those definitions is when we think about the concept of conscious leadership is can empathy and compassion be taught or are those inherent traits in your perspective when it comes to this concept of being a conscious leader? Because while I think that the conscious leadership concept works, I know it does and I understand it what about if a person has a leader or a boss or a supervisor, or they themselves might not be the most empathetic or compassionate person. Are those skills that can be taught to them, them over time? Or is it just a fixed outcome where either you have it or you don't?
Vanessa Judelman:no, they can definitely be taught over time. I think he is over time this is right.
Vanessa Judelman:that's like you hit the nail on the head when you said over time, I had a client years ago who he was um the head of an IT team and he was like a star performer. He's really good on the technical side but not good on the relationship side. So that's what we were coaching. And I said to him tell me about a time where you demonstrated empathy. He couldn't think of one, so I made him read you know what a good book is for that is Daniel Goldman's book emotional intelligence.
Vanessa Judelman:Yes, I've read that because that's, that's a whole concept of emotional intelligence is understanding my emotions, how they impact me and the people around me, and so you can assess your emotional intelligence Daniel.
Vanessa Judelman:Goldman's company has put together an emotional intelligence assessment. You can assess it. So you can assess your emotional intelligence. Daniel Goleman's company has put together an emotional intelligence assessment. You can assess it and you can definitely like they break it down into different components like empathy, like optimism. That's right, there's different parts of emotional intelligence and you can definitely learn, and what I would say is you have to want to learn it. Yeah, it's always like growth mindset is choice plus hard work, because you have to choose to learn it, then you have to work hard at it.
Vanessa Judelman:You have to work hard to create habits and overcome mindsets and beliefs that have been rattling around in your brain for, in some cases, decades.
Alethea Felton:Mm-hmm. And when we talk about different organizations, because you have worked with so many different ones, when you're working with an organization and they come to you with wanting trainings for conscious leadership, how would you advise organizations to identify potential leaders who possess the innate qualities needed to be conscious leaders, and what strategies then can they employ to help to nurture those individuals effectively?
Vanessa Judelman:I think the best way is to use self-assessments. There's a lot of different assessment tools. Again, I like to start with the data right. So even using a tool like the DISC profile, which is work, style assessment, which you know what I love about DISC and it's so interesting.
Vanessa Judelman:Actually, let me finish my sentence. I'll tell you what's interesting. What I love about DISC is it measures your work style. So it's how you show up at work, and there's four different work styles distance for dominant, influencer, steady and conscientious Guess what?
Vanessa Judelman:No work style is good or bad, right or wrong, it's just different. So immediately, by people learning that, they learn that the way you are is great and the way your colleague is, who's completely opposite than you, is also great. No good or bad, no right or wrong, just different. And so what that does is it opens people up to work in a judgment-free zone. So now, so I say to them, when we learn about DISC and work styles, I'll say to them, the next time you're in the meeting with that person who really annoys you, instead of judging them, what you're going to say is ah, not good or bad, right or wrong, just different. We're wired differently. And so it breeds those self-assessment tools are so wonderful to breed understanding. And then the story I was going to tell you is yesterday I started with a new client and I did his disk profile with him and he just understand. We spent an hour just understanding his wiring. He said to me honestly, vanessa, that one hour understanding the data around my work style was better than one year of therapy Wow.
Alethea Felton:That. That really says a lot. That says a lot and I'm curious was it that client's first time ever taking a disc assessment? It was, yes, interesting, and that is a common test. That is a common assessment.
Alethea Felton:I don't want to say test because it's not great, it's not right or wrong as you said, but if somebody out there, if any of you, haven't heard about that or know what it is, definitely take one or ask your job about it, because that is very beneficial to find out what your work style is and in thinking about this leadership development concept and the effect overall that they have on an organization before it begins to work effortlessly. Excuse me, vanessa, what have you seen are some common challenges? We're hearing about how wonderful this can be and it is overall, but what have you seen in your work? Are the common challenges that leaders face when they are transitioning to a more conscious leadership style, either for themselves or for their organizations, and how do you come in and coach them to be more accepting of it and to be more appreciative in seeing its value?
Vanessa Judelman:Yeah, well, the common issue is that people go to extremes to fix stuff right. So this is what I often see. I'll give you an example. I have a client who is a CEO of a company who is very dominant, and so, because he's so dominant, people on his team are a little bit nervous because they never know which version of him they're going to get. And so he's dominant and, I would say, quite moody, like sometimes really high, sometimes really low, depending on how things are going in the business. So what he's done now is he's pulled back, he's back, so I'm not going to talk anymore in meetings at all. So now he goes to meetings and doesn't talk and everyone's like what the what's going on with you, right, and it's extreme. So so we had to.
Vanessa Judelman:I said to him okay, you were here on this, like this side of the continuum of like extremely dominant. Now you're not talking at all. That's extreme. So what does it look like to? What's that middle ground? What is that middle ground?
Vanessa Judelman:So learning new behavior is hard. Right, if you play tennis with your left hand and I say, switch and play it with your right hand, that's hard. Change is hard. It takes time, it takes a lot of work, and so he's learning over time what that middle ground looks like and he's very brave because he's putting in a good effort and it's not working like now everybody's telling me I'm not doing it right. First I wasn't doing it right on this end of the scale because I was too intense, and now I'm not saying anything. I'm still not doing it right. That's hard. I wasn't doing it right on this end of the scale because I was too intense, and now I'm not saying anything and I'm still not doing it right. That's hard. That's hard feedback when you're trying and people say you're still not doing it right. So that's what we talked about. Is what does that middle ground look like?
Alethea Felton:And I like that example because it also shows when dealing with adults, sometimes people think when you work with youth, it's one way, but adult learning theory is not that far off from even how kids learn, because we are pretty much. Yes, we can be moldable and shapeable, but moldable isn't the word.
Alethea Felton:I think I just created that Can't think of the word that I'm trying to say, but oh well. But my whole point is that oftentimes certain strategies that are found to work more for youth also work for adults, because we're almost, in a way, fixed in our learning style and our technique and there has to be buy-in on both ends. So with adult learning theory since, just as you, I worked and, of course, as a coach, I still work with adults is that in order to find that middle ground, because it has to be that buy-in in order to have anything happen successfully. What about even for yourself, as you were researching this over the years and starting to implement it? And in what ways did you have to overcome even maybe some self-imposed challenges in becoming a true conscious leader, and what guides you to even teaching about it now?
Vanessa Judelman:Oh yeah, I had to overcome a lot of issues as a leader. I mean, I was here in the trenches for many years and I had people who loved my leadership style and I had people who didn't like my leadership style and they were very frank about it, right. And so I always use like I think the journey as a leader is to find your authentic self, as your journey as a human being is too right. Find your authentic self and bring the best version of yourself to work. But that's different for everybody.
Vanessa Judelman:So, for me. I'm a very task-oriented person. I am also a very relationship-oriented person At work. It sort of brought out my task orientation because I'm goal oriented. I was like let's get the goal and let's move fast and no time to discuss move, move, move. I was like, and then I got feedback You're moving too quickly, too quickly, your expectations are too high. I very high expectations of myself, so I would put my expectations of myself on everybody else. Some of my team members could roll with that and some people said stop, you're stressing me out, you're moving too quickly, you're not giving me enough information. I'm like figure it out Cause I like to figure things out for myself. Not everybody likes to do that Like, I need you to tell me, I need you to give me more data, I need you to give me more focus, clarify your expectations more for me. I was like wow, some people need that. Yeah, I had no idea.
Vanessa Judelman:So some of those people that I learned the most, who didn't like my leadership style because they push back, and so that's what I've. Learned is like I do need to slow down and I do need to be mindful. Learned is like I do need to slow down and I do mindful of pace and I do need to balance task and relationship.
Alethea Felton:And how did you not take that personally? And I ask that because even the best of the best leaders can become very defensive if a person says that, or they'll think something's wrong with you if you don't understand Like, how did you reconcile that? How did you not take it personally and truly receive it as constructive feedback? Because I think that's key for transformation as a leader.
Vanessa Judelman:I did take it personally. I did take it personally. I don't anymore. Yeah, In my 30s, when I was a leader, I did take it. I hated that person. I did.
Vanessa Judelman:I was like, oh, she's so difficult, and you know, and then, and then that was my honestly, that was my immediate reaction. It's like she's so difficult, oh, I wish she wasn't on my team. But then I had to reflect, right, I had to slow down and reflect and say, okay, I heard the expression once that, like in every piece of feedback, there's an element of truth. Is there a difference in this? Like, do I need to grow up? How do I need to grow up? So I reflected over time. But it really I did take it personally and you know what. It did hurt my feelings and I think we've all had feedback that hurt our feelings. And then you have to be responsible, adult and say, okay, although it hurt my feelings and I did take it personally, what's the grain of truth in that? What? And that's? That's the growth mindset Nothing's set in stone.
Vanessa Judelman:When I read Carol Dweck's book Mindset the True Psychology of Success, that changed my life because I realized where I was in. A fixed mindset, which means my belief was something was set in. You know, something is set in stone. Carol Dweck says nothing's set in stone, that's the growth mindset. So I was like, okay, nothing about my leadership style is set in stone, that's the growth mindset. So I was like, okay, nothing about my leadership style is set in stone, so I can change what I want. I can actually give people more data, I can be clearer and clarify my expectations more. I can slow down, I can work with my team to manage change instead of imposing change on them. It takes time. It takes reflection, courage, vulnerability.
Alethea Felton:And I think, too, I really thank you for being that transparent and open, saying that you did take it personally, because sometimes those of us in these leadership roles seem like we have everything all together, that it just bounces off of us. But that doesn't happen overnight and I won't put this on you, but I know for me, when it comes to or came to, especially in the past, getting tough feedback, I too would take it personally. But what would happen was, yes, I would do introspection, but I would end up talking to someone I trust about it, and sometimes that trusted person would say, well, sometimes you do X, y and Z, and when you hear it from someone who genuinely loves you, that stings also. But I had to learn how to really take it in and say, okay, maybe we have this term in the states I'm not certain how popular it is in Canada but people say everybody has a hater.
Alethea Felton:There's always somebody hating on, meaning someone who's jealous about you, things like that. But sometimes that's not always the case. It may not be a hater, it may genuinely be someone who's giving feedback that we don't want to hear. So in that aspect, even in conscious leadership, I think it's important to be receptive of any feedback that we get, because that's still going to happen. And so what practical tools or even strategies or techniques, vanessa, do you recommend for leaders to maintain as they continue developing as conscious leaders?
Vanessa Judelman:patience with yourself is number one, you know. Think of that leader who is talk too much in meetings, is too dominant and now is not talking at all and is extreme. Be patient with yourself, be kind with yourself. Right, you're on a journey. No, no journey takes a day. It can take years, right? Right, if I think about skills that that I developed, you have to persevere. I think perseverance, too, is such an incredible quality to have in in any, whether you're an entrepreneur, whether you work in, you know, in a job, you're a teacher, you work in corporate, it doesn't matter. You have to persevere. Right, you're gonna have ups and downs in life. You're gonna have ups and downs in your career, right? Perseverance and grit. I know there's a wonderful book called Grit too.
Alethea Felton:Yes, I have read that one.
Vanessa Judelman:Right, you need perseverance in life. I had a client say to me she's looking for a new job and she said would? The interview was amazing. I had my first interview, but I didn't get the job, so I'm going to give up. I was like what? What One job interview? Uh-uh, no, no, no, no, you're, you're not giving up. After one, I go that's pretty impressive actually that you got one interview so quickly, right?
Vanessa Judelman:So that concept of perseverance and personal growth in life is so important. Get at it, it's okay. And I think Carol Dweck in her book Mindset uses the term, uses the term not yet, and I teach all my leaders not yet, that's right. Yeah, I'm not yet there. So remember, you're not yet there. So when I make a mistake and when I'm working on something like my patients, for example, and I do something inpatient, I'm like not yet there Working on it.
Vanessa Judelman:You don't beat yourself up when you make a mistake. You just not yet there.
Alethea Felton:That's right and that not yet gives you grace. It gives you the grace to say I'm still trying, I'm still ever yet learning and I'm going to eventually get there. Ever yet learning and I'm going to eventually get there. Now, this conversation to me has been very intriguing and inspiring. But just to kind of add to just a bit more excitement to it and it's been exciting, but I use the word excitement because tell us about a time, vanessa, where you actually have seen an entire organization have measurable improvements in business outcomes due to conscious leadership Is there someone or a particular entity that comes to mind you don't have to share the actual company's name but is there something where you saw this concept of conscious leadership really taking this business to the next level All the time?
Vanessa Judelman:I see it all the time. So one example I can give you was oh, yeah, all the time. And the companies? You know it starts at the top, right? So when the CEO says I'm going to take the leadership training too, I know that it's going to work, because often what happens in organizations, they'll just do it for the middle managers, but the executive team they're okay, I'm like no, have they ever had leadership training? Because what happens is people get promoted and promoted and promoted.
Vanessa Judelman:One of the biggest issues in corporate is that is the lack of training and education. People get promoted because they're good at their job. Right, you're not being. You're good at marketing. That's what you learned to college. And now you promoted because you're good at marketing. Maybe marketing manager? It's a different job. Managing people is a different job. It's the same with executives, a C-suite. Some people have never had any leadership skills. Leadership is a different job than whatever you're trained to do in college, right?
Vanessa Judelman:So one example was a CEO had called me. He was in an airport in Miami. He was there with a colleague and the colleague screamed at him in public in the airport and he said this person is out of control, he has no emotional intelligence. You got to help right. I worked with this person for about four years, I'm not kidding you. On and off we had like a 12-month intensive and then on and off he would call me, be on the highway, be like hey, vanessa, we go through everything, we debrief it. He was so committed To your point. He wanted to change his behavior. Right, he's now the CEO of the firm. The CEO retired. This person is now running the business. Wow, he's invested in his people. He trains them. They do leadership offsite. The whole culture has changed has changed.
Alethea Felton:Wow, that is quite astonishing, and it is no mistake at all in the fact that his desire for wanting to change has definitely paid off for him. It has those outfits and it has those outcomes. Excuse me, and it begs the question to me when you think about the whole concept of conscious leadership, what do you see it as, say, in terms of evolving within the next decade? How will this concept evolve over the next decade, specifically when it comes to over the next decade, specifically when it comes to businesses and leaders in those businesses?
Vanessa Judelman:I hope that more leaders will become conscious. So when you have more conscious people on the planet, then the planet evolves. It's that ripple effect. So you know I touch the people that I touch. You touch the people you touch If people are listening. And do you know I touch the people that I touch. You touch the people you touch If people are listening. And do you know, whatever, whatever your work is, whatever your journey is, it's that ripple effect. So the more we can, we can teach people what it means to be conscious as a leader and in your everyday life the more the world's going to change.
Vanessa Judelman:It's people who go through the world with blinders on right and never think about their behavior, Never think about their work and how they impact other people. You know, those are the people that concern me, that anyone who's open to growth and development and being a better version of themselves. We need more of those people in the world. Yeah, To get more of those that's going to have an impact over the next 10 years.
Alethea Felton:And should a person or a leader say if a CEO of an organization is listening to this and they don't yet have this whole implementation of conscious leadership in their organization, is it something to be viewed as a one size fits all approach? Or, vanessa, when you work with these companies, how do you or do you tailor programs to meet the specific needs of different organizations and industries?
Vanessa Judelman:So when I started my business in 2011, one of the things that I did is I went through all of my coaching notes. As an executive coach, you know, I worked in a consulting company for 10 years. I went through all of the needs analysis that I'd done and I look for themes. I literally wrote themes, needs analysis. What are all the themes? Coaching clients, what are all the goals that we set in coaching?
Vanessa Judelman:Put them on stickers, put them on all over the wall and I came up with three buckets for leadership success as a leader, you need to know yourself, manage your team and lead your business. And leadership's complex. There's multifaceted. So what I've done with this model is take the complexity of leadership and put it into these buckets and then I run an eight module leadership program aligned with these buckets. So, know yourself is the GIST profile, is trust, is mindset, manage your team. It's coaching. It's having giving feedback, receiving feedback, both positive and constructive. It's how to build a high-performing team, lead your business. That's about leading, managing, communicating, change, prioritization, delegation, executing strategically right. Most leaders know or have been told hey, you need to be more strategic. They have no idea what it means. What does?
Vanessa Judelman:that mean Break down strategy for them into the three components. So that's my core program that I roll out to organizations. The reason it's eight months again is I say to people they're like can you do an off-site, a boot camp, for two days? I'm like I cannot, I will not. I want transformation. Right, your podcast is about transformation.
Alethea Felton:I want transformation.
Vanessa Judelman:I don't believe in transformation. As a leader in an in a bootcamp for two days, eight months, yeah, they practice it. They come back, we debrief, they learn a little more. They practice it. I review you know you're an educator learning it takes time.
Alethea Felton:It does, it takes time, it takes practice, receptiveness, and it's ever-evolving and ever-changing, and I could talk to you about this all day. I think it is a very effective, transformative way of learning, a way of leading, and, to use the word conscious, we hear about conscious relationships, conscious leadership. There are so many terms out there that use the word conscious and I think that is because we are in this complex society, and especially the landscape of business itself, in terms of how we navigate it. What role do you envision conscious leadership playing in shaping the future of work? And also, vanessa, what would you say to aspiring leaders that aim to embrace this concept of conscious leadership?
Vanessa Judelman:Well, conscious leaders are the future of work. The more conscious leaders I see out there, the more I see their businesses are incredibly successful. Like I do see a correlation between, for example, retention right. If you have a conscious leader at the helm who's treating people with compassion, with empathy, who's smart, sets objectives and goals too, you know, manages that task and relationship, has that balance. It impacts their bottom line, building high trust. It impacts the bottom line. It impacts retention. You're able to retain customers and people.
Vanessa Judelman:So conscious leaders are the future and I think if you are someone who's saying you know what I want to be a conscious leader, then start with that first pillar of know yourself. I would say that's the first place to start. Learn about your work style. Read Carol Book's mindset. Start learning about what it means to have a growth mindset. Get feedback from people. Wouldn't it be wonderful to send out an email today to three trusted colleagues? And I love your advice of getting, when you get feedback, going to a trusted person and saying what do you think? I love that, by the way, and I would say, maybe extend that concept and say email a trusted colleague and say what are my three strengths and what are my three weaknesses Like start with that place of knowing yourself.
Alethea Felton:Yeah, and in what ways has doing this work transformed your life?
Vanessa Judelman:It's transformed my mindset. It's made me a better version of myself. It's very conscious of. I use the terms what do I? What I always say to leaders I want you to be the best version of yourself. How do you do that? You need to learn to dial stuff up and dial stuff down. So I've learned through my leadership practice. I need to, for example, dial up my patience, or maybe dial down my impatience and dial up my listening, for example. So when I do that in my leadership practice, it transfers into my home life too. That's right. Oh yeah, it is that ripple effect for sure.
Alethea Felton:I love every bit of this and for anybody listening watching although she is based in Toronto, I have global listenership. Please, if your organization wants her, book her, fly her in so that she can come pay for her hotel, everything. Whatever you have to do, get her into your organization or contact her for coaching. Vanessa, it was such an honor having you today. Thank you for being that conscious leader that the world needs, and it has been such an honor and a joy having you on the Power Transformation Podcast.
Vanessa Judelman:Thank you so much for such a wonderful, delightful conversation.
Alethea Felton:If you enjoyed today's show, then you don't want to miss an episode, so follow the Power Transformation Podcast on Apple Podcasts, spotify or wherever you usually listen, and remember to rate and review. I also invite you to connect with me on social media at Alethea Felton. That's at A-L-E-T-H-E-A-F-E-L-T-O-N. Until next time, remember to be good to yourself and to others.
