The Power Transformation Podcast

96. The Power of Love: Healing & Transformation After Tragedy & Loss with Dave Roberts

• Alethea Felton • Season 2 • Episode 96

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Have you ever considered how life's most tragic moments could lead to profound personal growth?

Well, David Roberts learned just this when he experienced the heart-wrenching death of his daughter Jeannine which eventually led to Dave's spiritual awakening and rebirth.

A psychology professor, keynote speaker, and host of The Teaching Journeys Podcast, Dave shares his journey through sorrow and loss which was the key that unlocked the door to the transformative power of love.

Dave's valuable insights will not only leave you inspired, but they will lead to you paving a path towards finding your inner strength, resilience, and purpose through perhaps even the most unlikely of ways.

Connect with Dave:


Episode 96's Affirmation:
No matter the obstacles or hurt that come my way, I am more than a conqueror, and I will achieve great things.

Click here to connect with Alethea Felton

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Alethea Felton:

I have interviewed quite a few people here on the Power Transformation podcast and every guest that I've had has been so valuable and important to me. But there's something about David J Roberts that I call Dave and he goes by Dave that stood out to me, where Dave is the type of person who feels like I've always known him. He almost feels like, in a sense, that he's a play uncle to me. Dave just has that type of a spirit where it seems like I've known him forever and he has such a way about him that draws people in and he has so many accomplishments. And there's so much more I could say about Dave and while we are going to be talking on this episode with Dave Roberts, I think it's important to share that. Dave has presented workshops at national conferences. Dave has been a keynote speaker where he's spoken specifically to bereaved parents and he helps people deal with traumatic loss, particularly when it comes to the losses that people experience when it comes to their children. He has been a past Huffington Post contributor and he's contributed multiple articles to Medium, open to Hope Foundation, mindfulness and Grief Thrive Global and so much more. Dave is a retired addiction professional and he's also an adjunct professor in psychology, child Life Department at Utica University in Utica, new York. And what's so profound about Dave is that, even with all of these accomplishments, he is the host of the Teaching Journeys podcast, which can be found on most podcast platforms, and he's also a published author, where he's co-authored a book with Reverend Patty Farino, titled when the Psychology Professor Met the Minister. There is a key part of Dave's story that I'm leaving out intentionally because he is sharing that in this episode, but I really want you to understand that this man was such a significant life story, such a profound resume. There is so much deeper behind his story and by the time you listen to all of this episode, you are going to see just how Dave is going to spark you to think about your life, the people in it and how to make the very best of each day, because you never know how your life can change in an instant, and that could be the very catalyst you need to make a profound difference for the world.

Alethea Felton:

Hey y'all, welcome back to another episode of the Power Transformation Podcast. I am so happy to have you with me today. I am your host, alethea Felton, and I want to say welcome to all of you, particularly those of you who are new to this podcast. I am so grateful that you have come across this and please be sure to share this episode, go ahead and follow and subscribe, and thank you to those of you who have been with me since the inception, since the beginning of this podcast. It is because of you that it is reaching multiple countries. It is because of you that it still is in the top 5% and growing of all podcasts, and I am so thankful.

Alethea Felton:

I want to jump right into this interview, but if you're new to this podcast, you will notice that I always begin with an affirmation. An affirmation speaks those things into existence as if they are. Even if you may be having a challenging time in your life right now, an affirmation begins to shift your mindset. It does something where it causes you to have transformative growth and boy do I know all about that.

Alethea Felton:

And everybody has a story to tell, no matter how great or small it may seem. There is something about you yes, you that can change the lives of many. So I want to go ahead and share this affirmation with you and I want you to say it like you really mean it, say it with all of your heart and compassion and the strength that you have. I'll say it once and you repeat it no matter the obstacles or hurt that comes my way, I am more than a conqueror and I will achieve great things. I am so thrilled today to have Dave Roberts on the Power Transformation podcast and, as you heard earlier, dave does so much. But, more importantly, he commits his life to helping so many people, whether it's his students or those grieving or just people in general. And, dave, it is an honor having you Welcome.

Dave Roberts:

Well, Alethea, thank you so much for inviting me to be on your podcast. I've been looking forward to our conversation for some time now.

Alethea Felton:

Indeed, I have too. I am so happy that you are here and this is just going to be a beautiful conversation and it's really going to touch the lives of many. But, dave, what I like to do with all of my guests, I just like to always start with a random question that can just help us to get to know you better. It's lighthearted and fun, nothing deep or serious. But, dave, this is your question. For you, dave, what is your favorite candy?

Dave Roberts:

Wow, there are so many to choose from. We've got an hour right, I can go.

Alethea Felton:

Yes.

Dave Roberts:

As far as my favorite candy goes, I've always had an affinity for the Kit Kat bar. Oh, I just love the little peanut butter crust, the peanut butter inside and that wafer like the chocolate on the outside. It's just great. So I mean, if that was going to, you were going to really get to my heart. Throw me a package of Kit Kat bars.

Alethea Felton:

Oh, wow, kit Kat. Oh, that's a popular candy, really really popular candy, and so thank you for sharing that with us. I know that my sister loves Kit Kat and I had a friend who lived in Japan, in Okinawa, and she bought a variety of different types of Kit Kats that were sold over there and not here in the States, and my sister went wild. So that's beautiful Kit Kat. So, dave, the next question for you is simply this If a person were to ask you who is Dave Roberts, what would you say?

Dave Roberts:

That Dave Roberts is a person who continues to evolve and grow every day. In my 69th year of life and I'm going to be 69 next month I continue to learn and I continue to grow the pivotal point in my life.

Dave Roberts:

obviously I know we'll get to that you know later and later in the podcast, was at age 47 when, you know, life was going so predictably Well. I had gotten my master's degree in social work from SUNY Albany. My daughter, janine, had blessed me with our first grandchild. It was just, and then all of a sudden life took a turn. So if you're going to ask me who that person was I was at 47 years old I would tell you you'd need a search party to find them, because that person's long gone. Who I am at 47 is not who I am at close to 69. And in a sense I'm very glad for that, because if that was the case, if I was the same person at 47 as I am at 69, there'd be no growth.

Alethea Felton:

Wow, that is a powerful answer, and you're right. Over these years that we grow older, it is expected that we grow and we don't remain the same, and so this is a perfect segue to the heart of this interview and the work that you do, and a lot of it centers around healing, faith, resilience, grief, transformation all of that in one. And so let's just start off. You mentioned your daughter, janine. Dave, tell us about Janine and, in your own way, whichever way you'd like to take it talk about how her transitioning or her passing has led you to be who you are today.

Dave Roberts:

Well, first of all, janine was my only daughter. I have two sons, two great sons, dan and Matt. Janine was the middle child, but Janine always had my heart. She was honest. At times she was as you know any teenagers are can be extremely frustrating. She went through some growing pains. There were days that whatever hair I lost were probably because of just you know worry about some of the decisions that she made.

Dave Roberts:

But you know, the thing is is that we always my wife Sherry and I always tried to empower her. She was a free spirit and you don't reign in free spirits, you kind of guide them. So we always told her look, if your plan doesn't work, you can always fall back on us as your backup plan. And she defied conventional wisdom. She's taught me that conventional wisdom is highly overrated. She was very passionate about the people she loved, about the causes she believed in. She was just a. She was overall, she was just a great young woman. And I'm not going to try to idealize her because I mean there were some moments with her that you know, some challenging moments.

Alethea Felton:

Of course.

Dave Roberts:

But the challenges made, like the challenges I've experienced as a result of her transition, made me who I am today.

Dave Roberts:

The challenges that she experienced just with drawing paints made her who she is today. And I say is because she is still present, ever present in my life and she's present in everything that I do, things she always called me. I always called her daddy's little girl. She had a little bracelet that I remember I bought for her. She told me I was going to buy it for her for Christmas. I said daddy's little girl, and when we buried her, we buried her with that.

Alethea Felton:

Oh, wow.

Dave Roberts:

As, as you know, with some, with some other, some other things, but Janine wanted her independence. She was fiercely independent. She met a really great young man who at the time was about 18. They ended up cohabitating together and you know with. They ended up cohabitating together, and you know, with Sherry and I's approval, and we knew we weren't going to stop it anyway, because Janine was held bent, Excuse my French.

Alethea Felton:

Yeah, that's fine.

Dave Roberts:

She was held bent to get her independence and so, but we allowed that and we knew that she was going to be in good hands with this young man. So one day she called me from her apartment and she said Dad, we need to talk to you, her being her significant other, stephen, we need to talk to you. And I was worried that something was up, that something was wrong with their relationship. But she said, no, I just got to come over. So she came over and about 20 minutes after the phone call opened up the door to our kitchen before the door even closed and before she even said, hi, dad, I love you, or how are you, dad?

Dave Roberts:

I'm pregnant. Oh, wow. So this was in September of 2001. Immediately, I kind of went into to dad mode and I did not get upset, you know. I told him I said I wish I could have waited a little longer. But you know, it is what it is. So let's talk about your steps moving forward. Do you have a plan? They had a plan, they had everything worked out and I said I gave them my blessing and in May May 2nd 2002, she delivered a healthy baby girl by the name of Brianna, who is now 22 years old.

Alethea Felton:

Wow, oh, how lovely. By the name of Brianna, who is now 22 years old.

Dave Roberts:

Wow, oh how lovely, yeah, and. But in between she had injured her foot during her pregnancy. During her freak accident she had injured her right foot and her foot became progressively more swollen. Traditional treatment for a swollen foot aletheia didn't work, wasn't responding to treatment. So her orthopedic surgeon her orthopedist, excuse me wanted to do an MRI and she said not until after my baby's born.

Dave Roberts:

So after, in May, she had the MRI done, they found an undefined eight centimeter mass at the bottom of her foot. They biopsied it and eventually the diagnosis that we got from our local oncologist and from the consulting oncologist at Dana-Farber Research Institute in Boston was a stage four sarcoma called the velior rhabdomyosarcoma, which was a rare and aggressive connective muscle tissue cancer. In the five-minute consult that we had, the oncologist at Dana-Farber said there is no cure for your daughter's cancer. The only hope that we have is aggressive chemotherapy to put it into remission. Until we can find a cure, my God, oh, yeah. So essentially what I heard, what my daughter heard, was that your daughter is going to die and I was going to be walking the path that no parent ever envisions walking in all of their lives.

Alethea Felton:

Now to give you the time, dave, let me pause you here, and I know I said to explain the whole journey, but I want to pause you here to ask journey. But I want to pause you here to ask and I'm not being facetious when I ask this but in that moment, when you hear those words and that's your interpretation, because it would be mine too what is the response? What is the emotional response? What is the taking it all in? Take us back to that moment when you, your wife, your daughter, hearing that there's no cure for this, what happens in that moment?

Dave Roberts:

Well beyond the shock and disbelief is how am I going to live in a world where my daughter's not physically present? And that was what I had, the challenge that I had moving forward, and it was, you know, 10 months from diagnosis to transition. She transitioned on March 1st 2003 at the age of 18. She transitioned at home, with hospice services providing support. So that question that I had is and I'm going to quote one of my favorite philosophers, the drummer for the late drummer for Rush, neil Peart, who had his own series of tragedies in 1997 and 1998, when the question that he had is what kind of a person am I going to be and what kind of a world am I going to live in?

Dave Roberts:

And that's the question that I had moving forward and understand. I had been a therapist, I had been an addiction counselor.

Dave Roberts:

I had been a clinical supervisor, I got my master's degree in social work. All my education and training didn't even remotely prepare me for the path I was about to walk At 47 years old. It wasn't just a midlife crisis, alethea I was learning how to walk all over again. You know, my assumptive world was shattered. My belief about what made the world safe was shattered, and I had to literally pick up the pieces and move forward.

Alethea Felton:

Wow. So throughout that journey of Janine's cancer and her being a new mother, so many life changes happening at once. What is one of the most memorable conversations that you had with her regarding all of this, and how did that conversation help to be a part of the catalyst who transformed you into who you are today?

Dave Roberts:

Well, I think like there were two meaningful points for me and I want to go back if I can.

Alethea Felton:

Yes.

Dave Roberts:

We first got back from the Dana-Farber Research Institute. It was a five-hour drive from Boston to where we live in upstate New York and she was in so much pain and I had this old 1993 Jeep Cherokee that was not really bump friendly.

Dave Roberts:

Every bump in the road I hit. She was screaming out in pain. So I tried going fast, I tried going slow. Nothing worked. We finally got home and this was I think it was June 4th. We, finally, we got home. She sat on the couch and I just collapsed in her lap. I start crying my eyes out, um. And I told her. I said I'm sorry that I I caused you so much pain and you know so. This is over 21 years later and I can still get choked up telling this. And I looked up in her face and she was starting. I could see tears welling up and and she looked at me and she goes, dad. The only reason that I yelled is because I was in so much pain, but she goes. You know, if you and I'm paraphrasing this if you can't sleep, come and get me and we'll talk. I'm thinking I'm I'm devastated because I know I'm going to lose my daughter. I know she's going to there's going to be a time when I'm going to wake up and she's not going to be physically present. And she all, she was terminally ill, she was dying and all she was worried about was my wellbeing. So that I said and she goes, I'm not going down without a fight. I kind of that moment gave me the strength to move forward with her and to to weather whatever, whatever storm I was going to weather with her cancer treatment and the progression of her disease.

Dave Roberts:

The second most memorable conversation that we had was after Christmas, and we were by ourselves, and this was Alethea. Just you know. Something in and of itself because after Janine got diagnosed, her significant other, janine Brianna, their cat, moved in with my two sons, my wife, my two cats and me. So the standing joke in the neighborhood is how many two-leggers and four-leggers could we get in a single level ranch? We tested that theory. We found ourselves alone and she had done a lot for Christmas for everybody.

Dave Roberts:

And I remember we went out to lunch and I took her Christmas shopping and she had done a lot for Christmas for everybody. And I remember we went out to lunch and I took her Christmas shopping and she looked at me and she goes, dad, she goes. I did what I did for Christmas, she goes. I know I did a lot for Christmas, but I did what I did because I'm not sure I'm going to be here next year and this was Christmas of 2002. And she knew too, and she knew I found out later that dealt through some poems that she had saved and through some conversations I had with my wife that she had the sense that her time on earth was going to be short. But I didn't know that then. But that was a memorable conversation for me, only because of the fact that, at 18 years old, you know most people are thinking about. You know new mothers thinking about raising a child, thinking about marrying the love of her life.

Alethea Felton:

She's thinking about her own mortality at 18.

Dave Roberts:

And that, just the fact that she was that open with that with me, was something and that's a tribute to in terms of you know what she, you know how she, she approached her on chapter of life.

Alethea Felton:

And when all of this is happening, dave, it dawns on me that not only are you navigating your own grief, but you're a husband, you're still a father to other children, to other children, you're a grandfather. Now You're still in these roles of leadership, so to speak, in other areas of your life. So how were you able to process your own grieving journey? Because, contrary to some popular belief, in many cases the grieving process starts long before the person even transitions. And then, of course, when our loved one does transition, the reality of it hits. But as they're going through that, as they're going through that, we start our grieving process. So how were you able to support others while still supporting yourself? Or were you just literally just taking things moment by moment as they came?

Dave Roberts:

I think the latter description that you had, taking things moment by moment as they came. Because when I was in it, I mean one of the things is that, whether it's anticipatory grief, when you're grieving and with terminal illness you grieve the actual loss of the person's personality, their autonomy, their physicality. But I was just trying to get through moment by moment. I was just trying to survive. I tried to be as present as I could for my kids, for my wife, but really at that time grief was very much self-absorbing for me. I was just trying to figure out how I was going to get through day by day, you know, and one of the worst things that I think as a parent or anybody is witnessing their loved one gradually wither away from a terminal illness, from cancer.

Dave Roberts:

And you mentioned anticipatory grief, anticipatory grief, and you're absolutely right with this. It does not prepare us for the actual moment of transition, the emotion that goes with that. Basically, what anticipatory grief helped me do was kind of do the practical stuff, like you know, pick out her cemetery plots, you know, do her funeral arrangements, things of that nature prior to that, because prior to her transition, on March 1st, on February 27th, she went into the active phase of dying. So with that I started talking to the funeral director, happened to be my brother-in-law and we started making plans and he looked at me and they said you sure you want to do this? I said yeah.

Alethea Felton:

I said it's over, it's over.

Dave Roberts:

We need to start planning now and I wrote her obituary. I had her obituary written before she transitioned so it helped me address the practical stuff when it came to the funeral, when it came to the planning, but certainly didn't prepare me for the emotional shock that I was in, the shock and numbness that I had in general after she transitioned.

Alethea Felton:

I'm sure Wow. And people often say that there's no other feeling as when a parent loses a child. It's just a different type of grief that is quite inexplicable and quite difficult when a parent outlives their child. And so Janine transitions, and so now you're left with the reality of her passing, but something very profound and I might even add and correct me if I'm wrong a bit unexpected happened post her earthly transition, in that you started to become even more in tuned with the whole concept of spirituality, which is a huge aspect of who you are today. So, dave, start to take us down that road in terms of what was your spiritual life like prior to Janine's passing and how did her death become a change agent in your spiritual life and journey now?

Dave Roberts:

Well, you know, one of the things Aletheia is that you know, the people that come into our lives are meant to come into our lives by design and at the time they were supposed to come in To give you an idea of what my conception or belief in anything spiritual was, was, I didn't really believe in anything spiritual or have any sense of spirituality. My background was in psychology. I was very science-based, very, you know, empirically based. If I couldn't experience the world with my five senses senses it didn't exist. I mean, it had to be in front of me for me to give it credibility to its existence. My mother, on the other hand, was very intuitive, very sensitive, but I really vehemently rejected her attempts at trying to get me to, to embrace spirituality. Um, but what happened? Is that one of the things that I, that my soul, realized was that if I were going to integrate my daughter's, my grief, with my daughter's transition, if I were going to find peace, my soul realized that I had to integrate different perspectives.

Dave Roberts:

So, seven years this is 2010 after Janine's transition and I had been playing, I got to back up and just, I had been doing the what was ever expected, I think, of any parent who'd lost a child. I was going to I had a good support group I was beginning to start about three or three years in start to companion other individuals who had experienced loss. I started to do some writing. I started to do some workshops. I was doing everything that was expected. I was reading books.

Dave Roberts:

I was trying to find out what other parents who were longer along the path you know, did to help them get to that point and to help them find peace. I was doing all of that, did to help them get to that point and to help them find peace. I was doing all of that. But through pure chance, I met on the phone an interfaith minister from Rhode Island by the name of Patty Farino, and she was registering for a conference called Beyond Words Creative Approaches to Grief that I was helping to organize. Had her computer not blacked out when she was at the moment she was registering, she would have never. She would have never called me. We would have never met.

Alethea Felton:

What happened?

Dave Roberts:

Yeah, what happened is that we had registration online. She had told me when she called she goes. I looked at all my workshops. I checked, double-checked the workshops that I wanted to attend. I double-checked my credit card information, hit register. Computer screen went totally blank. So then she, there was a number, my number was at the end if anybody was having trouble registering to call. So she calls me, we start talking.

Dave Roberts:

I asked her if she had experienced death of a child or loss of a child and she said no. But as an interfaith minister in Long Island, she was involved with the Angel of Hope, which is a statue that's erected in honor of those children who have died and is a way to support parents who have experienced a transition or death or passing of a child. And she told me that that was a big part of her ministry at this point and I had told her about Janine and one of the things she asked me she goes, dave, do you believe in science? And I said you know, patty, I really don't subscribe to that view.

Dave Roberts:

I'm very science-based, I'm very, you know, I'm very much in the physical world-based. But you know there were things that were happening to me six months after Janine's passing that I couldn't account, science couldn't account for. I mean, I would think you know I was walking my granddaughter around the block and there was a butterfly that was following me for the entire time of our walk. I would be thinking of my daughter. There was a sign that came on the radio that would immediately remind me of her. So all these things were happening, but I had difficulty integrating that into my science to see where this all fit into my science-based background.

Dave Roberts:

So but I did tell Patty. I said I think I did get a double rainbow once from my daughter on Father's Day.

Alethea Felton:

Oh.

Dave Roberts:

Father's Day 2009. And my daughter, my wife Sherry, was out with her sister Diane on the back of her deck and she goes. Dave, you got to come out here. I think you got a double rainbow from your daughter and there wasn't a cloud in the sky, Wow, you know, there wasn't a cloud in the sky, Wow, there was a cloud in the sky.

Dave Roberts:

And it was just this big double rainbow. So when I told Patty afterwards I said if I see you at the workshop I'm going to give you a great big hug. So I sort of we at the conference. So it was September 10th when we had the conference. I saw her. I said Patty Farino, yep, she goes, yeah, she goes, yeah. I said Patty Farino, yep, she goes, yeah, she goes, yeah. I said Dave Roberts, I gave her that great big hug. Then she whispers in my ear she goes. I think your daughter sent me a rainbow. So I'm thinking I'm totally fried, after you know the conference planning, I'm tired and I'm thinking I'm smiling. Okay, great, you know, I think that I said yeah, that's that sounds great.

Dave Roberts:

What I found out later, the week before the conference her and her husband, marco, had gone away for like a weekend getaway. They came back over Route 17 in New Jersey and they saw this beautiful double rainbow that transcended one end of Route 17 to the other, not a cloud in the sky. They were so enamored and taken by it that I think, as I'm recalling the story correctly, patty told Margo you got to stop the car so I can take a look at this. Marco was getting out and he was looking. He couldn't believe it either.

Dave Roberts:

So Patty was videotaping and taking a picture. She sat, she was sat on the on the car. All of a sudden she heard a voice as tell her, I need you to talk to my father. And she goes. Well, I'd be glad to, but who's your father? She goes. It's the guy you talked to about the conference. So then, push came to shove. In november I found myself at her house staying, staying at her and Marco's house for a weekend. We had gone to a workshop that a then colleague of ours was putting together in Long Island called Embracing the Power of Change, which was kind of fortuitous.

Alethea Felton:

Exactly yeah.

Dave Roberts:

And from there we came back from the conference. She said you know, I want you to get comfortable. I went into her sacred space. She had a fire going and from there the rest was history. The rest was history yeah, that conversation convinced me that Janine's consciousness lived on and I was getting distinct messages through Patty being the conduit, saying that you're doing a great job being a parent who's lost a child.

Alethea Felton:

But you've got other categories.

Dave Roberts:

You're a father, you're a grandfather, you're a teacher, because I started teaching at Utica University shortly after she had or before she transitioned, and she goes you. You got all these categories. You need to. You need to. I'm always going to be here. She goes, but you need to, you need to grow, you need to grow in these other areas and not neglect your duties as a husband, as a father, as a grandfather, as a teacher. She goes you. I'm always going to be here with you. Now, the one question that may come to your mind, alethea, is did I believe this? Did I believe what was happening?

Alethea Felton:

Yeah, because what I was about to say is that I personally don't believe in coincidences. Coincidences and everything that's happened to you, even from the way you and Dr Patty got together to even meet each other I mean, what are the odds of that happening and for her to call you, and then all of these signs and wonders, so to speak, that come your way and that is a question that came to mind is how much convincing did it take for you to really start to say, hey, there's more to this than just a random coincidence.

Dave Roberts:

Right from the get-go. I believe what was going on was real.

Dave Roberts:

And I'll tell you what contributed to that, as we're going to go back again to the day after the conference. In a night in New York that I helped coordinate, I was taking three of the presenters up to up north because in September the change of season here was beautiful I mean with the trees and the leaves so I wanted them these were all out-of-town guests. I wanted them to get a look at upstate New York scenery. So they're having this intense spiritual conversation. This was in September and I looked up at the sky to say to no one in particular, to nobody in particular I want to be where they are and all I wanted was to be able to have some increased knowledge of spirituality so I could move to the next step.

Dave Roberts:

Now, even though I was doing what I thought was expected of, you know, as a bereaved parent moving through my grief, the fact that I cried out, or I said that very silently, told me that my soul needed something more, and intention is a very powerful form of prayer. Usually, when you state an intention, the universe will find some way to make that manifest, and I stated that intention very sincerely, but what I got exceeded what I asked for. All I wanted was some increased spiritual knowledge through Patty I got more of. I got a different perspective that enabled me to find peace with my daughter's passing and helped me transform the relationship with my daughter so that we have this really strong spiritual bond and the relationship with Patty and I grew.

Dave Roberts:

We had marathon conversations with Patty and I grew. We had marathon conversations and we still do. But over the past, especially the 10 years, we had marathon conversations about anything spiritual and how that could integrate with my science-based background and every time she would tell me to try something, I would do it and I'd say, god, this fits, what this fits. I could see where science and spirituality comes into play and that led to us. After some years of convincing her because she's a very private person by trade she finally agreed that, yeah, we got to write a book about the experience.

Alethea Felton:

Yes, and, and I'm definitely going to get to that, to get to that, and so what I wanted to ask you here is and oh gosh, you know exactly where I'm going and I like this. So, yes, you co-authored the book when the Psychology Professor Met the Minister, and that explores the intersection of psychology and spirituality. So, dave, how do these two fields complement each other in understanding and coping with grief, and what insights were you to expecting readers to gain from the book, and what have they gained from it?

Dave Roberts:

have they gained from it. You know, based on one of the things that we wanted, I think, was three things we wanted to accomplish One, in the first part of the book we talked about the spiritually transformative experience of Patti Guided. The second was how psychology and spirituality could merge to help individuals transcend challenge and increase their awareness of their role in the world around them. And increase their awareness of their role in the world around them and a greater sense of self-awareness and the importance of critical thinking for the younger generation. What individuals have told me is that, you know, they got a whole, really, really different perspective in terms of, particularly in terms of some of the things that we talked about that they didn't maybe see as spiritual concepts, as being spiritual.

Dave Roberts:

Like, for example, we talked a little bit about embracing shadow, which is, you know, the shadow was something that was developed by Carl Jung, a psychoanalyst in the Freud tradition, and Jung has talked about the shadow being the person you want to be, that in order to embrace true authenticity, we have to embrace those parts of ourselves that aren't happiness, and we have to learn from all of that. We have to not deny those parts of ourselves. So I think one of the things that surprised a lot of people was how we were able to integrate some of those concepts very seamlessly with our science-based background, and I think the other part of it was that. I think some of the perception was that, well, if we embrace these specific beliefs, that means that we have to throw our core beliefs out the window, and that's not the case. What we talk about in the book is what do you believe? And what we talked about was adding perspectives in addition to your core beliefs. We can empower ourselves to pick those spiritual perspectives that resonate for us.

Dave Roberts:

We can take those that don't resonate with our core beliefs and and basically, we, we stand in our own truth with that. So I think what a lot of people were surprised with was that it wasn't a book that said this is how you're going to see the world. This is, we just prevent. And you know, we talked about all of that, and we also talked about the great conjunction of 2020, where the, you know, mars and Jupiter, the two planets, aligned to form the Christmas star, which signaled a return to the age of Aquarius, which meant that we were going to have we were going to be looking at a world in spirit central time, obviously that was going to be inclusive, that was going to be tolerant, that was going to be based on principles of peace and not polarization.

Dave Roberts:

I think informally and formally appreciated the fact that we were able to talk about those concepts without I think, intruding on anybody else's spiritual beliefs. Now, this may be a book that's not for everybody because, depending on where you are in your grief journey, you may not be able to see a lot of this stuff.

Alethea Felton:

Yeah, I understand.

Dave Roberts:

It's a book that I would tell people that if you read it three years in, read it seven years in and see if you get your perspective changes and a lot of what Patty exposed me to. There are books that I had read early in grief that had some very spiritual and metaphysical concepts that didn't resonate with me. But after the weekend in Long Island I read them again and everything kind of just clicked. Or the Weekend in Long Island.

Alethea Felton:

I read them again and everything kind of just clicked. And this book is just one of many people that this book is, one of many tools, excuse me that people can use as they navigate their own spirituality, their own grief. And over the years, dave, I would think that you've encountered people in general who may have had some misconceptions about grief. And so what are some of the common misconceptions about grief have you encountered and how do you address them in your work? And what I mean by your work is that you have been a national and local workshop presenter, you've been a keynote speaker, a contributor to various platforms. So how do you address misconceptions that people have about grief?

Dave Roberts:

One of the biggest misconceptions I've had to consistently deal with is that grief is a time-limited process. That is very linear, that after six months to a year, that's when the acceptable period of grieving is done, and then you put your grief in a little box, bury it, you move on and proceed normally. Well, from my own experience, I can tell you your grief in a little box, bury it and you move on and proceed normally. Well, from my own experience, I can tell you that grief is a very circular process. It doesn't matter how long you have been without the physical absence of your loved one. You can still experience a raw pain of grief at any time, no matter how long it's been, depending on what's going on at a particular moment the other. And so I tell individuals I said, expect that and especially for many individuals, a second year is more challenging than the first year Because of the first year. It's kind of like a very surreal process. There's still some shock. There may be some thinking that and, if I could speak from my own perception, I thought Janine would walk in from the bedroom saying Dad, just kidding, I'm back. But one year and one day into it, the reality sank in. I realized it's going to be my life. She's not coming back, so it's a very circular process.

Dave Roberts:

It isn't time limited. People are going throw the concept of time out the window and look at movement and progress. You know it's going to take as long as it's going to take for individuals to move from the raw pain of loss to accepting and I'm not talking about closure, but accepting that their world is going to be permanently changed without the physical presence of their loved one but they're still going to re-engage in a life of meaning and of service. That process is individualized. I think it depends a lot on the trauma that's involved with cause of death. You know maybe the nature of the relationship or things that were left unsaid prior to that individual's transition. There's a lot and we need to be patient with that process. The other thing is that you know, for some reason if we talk about death, it's almost like it's almost contagious if we talk about it. But something's going to happen to me uh-huh well bottom line.

Dave Roberts:

There's two things in this society we don't talk about, but that is one. People are dying um every day and sex and sex is another one.

Dave Roberts:

I think, for my, people are still having sex, um, but we don't talk about it, but yet morbidly fascinated with it, yeah, but the bottom line is, talking about it takes the fear out of it and what we fear is going to manifest until we deal with that, um. The other thing is that the spiritual aspects of grief is as we've talked about in terms of integration, and one of the things I talk about a lot is integrating the best parts of who janine is to the best parts of me, so that when you get me, you get a package deal if you see a lot of young. The best parts of who Janine is to the best parts of me, so that when you get me you get a package deal.

Dave Roberts:

If you see a lot of young energy coming out with me at 68 years old, almost 69, it's probably my daughter's influence, so when you get me, you get her.

Alethea Felton:

That's right.

Dave Roberts:

You know so. And and the other. The other myth is that we have to forget to move through grief, but in reality, we need to remember and to carry the best parts of our loved ones forward in order to work through our grief. And that's another myth. We never forget those people that have had an impact on our lives. You don't forget a spouse who was a part of your life for 60 years. You just don't compartmentalize that after a year, that's right.

Dave Roberts:

The memories and the relationship live on long after the physical body lives on. And the other thing is that if you grieve past the prescribed time that most individuals in society will give you, it is not pathological. It is a normal expression of life. In fact, loss is a microcosm, I believe, of anything that happens in life. I have not met Alethea people who are totally happy 24-7. If they are, they're in denial of the other parts of themselves that lead to their authenticity. I can learn as much from my sadness as I can from my moments of joy. I can learn as much from my anger, and that is who I am. Those moments will inform me, they will teach me, they give me information, they help me move forward in the world in a more authentic and genuine way, and we need to embrace all parts of ourselves if we're going to move through grief, and we can't deny anything that isn't happiness.

Alethea Felton:

And really, really quickly, dave, is that? What I like about your work, too, is that you incorporate the concepts of compassion and empathy in your work, and I think that's very beneficial to people so that they can learn how to support themselves more effectively through their own respective journeys.

Dave Roberts:

Yes, my greatest sadness and greatest tragedy led to. It opened up like a wall of compassion for me, with my students, with those you know. My students have their own set of challenges as well too. It opened up that wall of compassion with my students, for the younger generation, for individuals who experienced their worst tragedy and I can meet anybody at their worst tragedy because I can tap into the pain of my worst tragedy and tap into the pain of their worst tragedy because I know what that's like for me. Um, so if your worst tragedy was a loss of a parent, I don't have to, I can align with that. I mean, I've lost both of my parents, but I could even if I did, I could, I could align with that by showing some empathy, by saying, by tapping into what my worst pain was like and try to envision what your worst pain was like from that perspective and see if I could communicate some understanding or alignment with that.

Dave Roberts:

So that's one of those compassion and empathy. It's a big part that's going to be more important, I think, in helping individuals work through grief than any credentials that you may have Although credentials are important but I know a lot of good therapists who don't do grief effectively because they go with the stages of grief model and that research has proven time and time again that stages of grief do not account for how we grieve in reality how we grief in reality, and especially now.

Alethea Felton:

When I did grief therapy, it was in a group form, and, while this program discusses stages of grief, one thing I liked about it is that they made it very clear that this is not something that you do as a checkoff list. It's not in order, it's not in any particular way. You could feel multiple stages at once, and then some of what you experience in grief isn't even on this list of stages, and so it was more about navigating it in your own way and learning that it's okay to grieve, it's okay to feel how you feel, and when I added that to my grief toolbox, so as to speak, it really helped and that's something that you help people with or speak on is building a personal grief toolbox, because it can be beneficial for people navigating loss. And so, dave, what strategies or resources do you suggest for building that grief toolbox, and how can a person actually tailor it specifically for their own needs and experiences?

Dave Roberts:

Well, I mean the first thing. I mean, if you look at the basics, when I work with anybody, it's always an individualized approach and as a therapist ethically. As a retired therapist but still licensed, I need to do client-centered therapy. That's ethical, that's expected. So essentially I'll have the client. Basically I might do a brief history, try to get a history of their past losses, including pet loss, which is also something that isn't talked about.

Alethea Felton:

Sure isn't.

Dave Roberts:

And is something that can tend to be minimized by many in society but is real. And so I take a look at their history of loss and first of all try to find out what helped you get through those specific losses. So I try to identify past strengths that they use to get through other losses and see if we can apply them to the current loss. So they might say, well, journaling really worked well for me, and that could either be an audio journal or a written journal. So what if I? They might say, well, journaling really worked well for me. That could either be an audio journal or a written journal. So we might go back to that.

Dave Roberts:

I might give them some specific journaling prompts or just tell them write whatever comes to your mind, make sure it's raw, don't edit it, just put it right out there, and then over time we can look at that and see the progress that you made. Sometimes I'll have them do a gratitude journal. I said, even in the worst day of your life, during your grief, find one thing that you're grateful for. It might be somebody who gave you a call, somebody who sent you a text, somebody that came by your house and said look, I need some. I'm going to get some groceries. What can I get you from the store?

Dave Roberts:

It could be just any of those things and keep that journal. You know at least one, one element of gratitude per day that you can, that you can identify, and eventually that adds up. Um the other thing, and depending on where they're, I might have them write a letter to their transition, loved one or have their transition loved one. Write a letter to them and have them envision what that would be like.

Alethea Felton:

Oh, I like that, I like that yeah.

Dave Roberts:

And that's something I would probably want to build the basics with first. As far as journaling, as far as. And the other thing that I try to also do in the beginning is be something called an expert companion, is be something called an expert companion and I'm taking this from Richard Tedeschi and Lawrence Calhoun, who talked about expert companionship which is essentially being present for an individual's story, allowing that story to unfold, getting to know the person through their eyes and just guide them with compassion and empathy through the worst tragedy of their lives.

Dave Roberts:

So with that I'll ask them for a photo. I'll ask them to either have a DVD that they might have had or send me a video their favorite video of their loved ones, and we'll talk about that. We'll have them share stories about that and talk about that, that and talk about that.

Dave Roberts:

So, and that would probably be the first thing I do is I try to establish that type of relationship and communicate to them that I'm in the long haul for them. Then do the gratitude work, the journaling, the letter writing, and then we might take it a little bit. You know, as they begin to experience, you know they may want to look into mediumship. They may want to look into some more metaphysical aspects, like past life experiences, or how can I integrate my grief, how can I create continued bonds with my loved ones?

Dave Roberts:

So, that might help them when they are ready. Develop activities where they can connect with their loved ones, Like with my daughter already. Develop activities where they can connect with their loved ones. Like with my daughter on her angelversary dates, I would burn some incense, have a playlist of her favorite music, bring her to conscious memory and play it and connect with her that way. So it's the tools that I will suggest are varied. I also will suggest reading brief articles because in the beginning of grief their energy levels may be so compromised that they may only be able to read a 500 page or 500 word article. So I might give them some brief articles to read about the grief process, particularly in terms of how the body manifests grief.

Dave Roberts:

So, that normalizes that process for them, because a lot of times they're thinking, well geez, is this normal what I'm going through? I'm fatigued, I can't concentrate, I'm not as organized as I used to be, and I try to normalize that process, saying that loss affects us psychologically, it can affect us physically, it can affect us cognitively, it can affect how we view our relationships with ourselves and others. So I try to do that whole normalization process simultaneous to building a relationship based on compassion and empathy and giving them specific tools that are tailored to their individual needs. And the other thing is not judging how they choose to grieve. I will find out what has helped you grieve in the past and will work from their unique grief and grief style. If we develop affirmations, it's not going to be canned affirmations. It's going to be based on verbiage which they are comfortable with, which has helped them translate thought into action.

Alethea Felton:

You said so many loaded things and our time is almost to a close, but I loved everything that you said and I would encourage any listener who's really gained insights from this interview to play it over again. And I wanted to just mention you and I have talked offline about certain things, but I like how this toolbox gives own opinion. In Western society, I think that we limit our views even when it comes to the supernatural, metaphysical and all of that, and I've shared with you and I'm open on my podcast is that I would identify myself, I guess if I have to have a check off as Christian but I don't usually lead with that I say I am a follower of Jesus Christ, I believe in his divine nature, all of that. However, I've also had supernatural experiences that the Bible can't necessarily explain and it does not negate my foundation and the principles I just frankly believe and I know, based on near-death experiences I've had literal ones that there are certain things that even the most devout of religions don't touch on or speak on or talk about. So, even when it comes personally for me in terms of the concept of heaven, I'm not saying that the heaven of the Bible isn't a true realm, but the way I view God is that the God I serve has the ability to have multiple realms and multiple areas and things that are so limitless, based on what I've experienced.

Alethea Felton:

And so, as part of a closing question on oh gosh, dave, I could have you back on just to even talk about your podcast, and I want to actually give you space to talk about that. So pardon me if we go just a little bit over. I want to be respectful of your time, but what I want you to do now is take time just to tell us about this phenomenal podcast you have called the Teaching Journeys Podcast. Tell us about that and briefly tell us how that came to be and what listeners can get out of that. How can we follow the podcast? But also, how can we connect with you? How can a listener connect with you if they want to learn more about you?

Dave Roberts:

Okay, well, first to talk about the podcast was at the persistence of what I call two of my pain in the neck former students who said, dave, you got to do a podcast. Who said, dave, you got to do a podcast. They were for a year, they would not let this up. You got to do a podcast because I teach a death dying and bereaping course at Utica University. We get it also the spiritual aspects of dying as well too. So a lot of what we talked about here, plus some.

Dave Roberts:

And they said you got to bring the teachings that you put in the classroom to a podcast and I said, okay, fine, and they said so, have you got the podcast up yet? I said you're not going to let this go, are you no? So finally, March 31st, we launched the first podcast of the Teaching Journeys podcast, and Patty was and I launched it together. You know, we talked about how we met, we talked about our book when the Psychology Professor Met the Minister, and from there it's just morphed, the podcast. The mantra of the podcast is we're all students and teachers, so let's learn from each other. So I have a variety of different guests. I'm pleased to say we're going to be recording together soon, and I'm excited.

Dave Roberts:

I'm excited about having you on my podcast.

Alethea Felton:

I am too, thank you.

Dave Roberts:

You're welcome, and so I've had individuals who have transcended loss and they've shared with their shared their journey and shared what they have learned with their audience, and I want individuals who come on the podcast to use my platform as their platform to talk about their journeys, to talk about the life skills that they've developed that could help other, that could be teaching moments for my audience and that's essentially what the Teaching Journeys podcast is about. I've had individuals who've transcended loss. I've had individuals who have done coaching specifically with women and women empowerment. I've had holistic and integrative health practitioners talking about Reiki, talking about meditation, how they can improve physical and mental health outcomes and help individuals transcend grief.

Dave Roberts:

So it's a variety of different guests that I've had that have a teachable skill, that have a story that have where they've transcended challenge that can help others in their own paths. We've released 69 episodes audio episodes. We also have a YouTube channel as well. They can find the podcast. They can go on Apple and Spotify and Amazon Music and other podcast platforms to follow it. They can also follow my YouTube channel if they want to, because I've started having a YouTube presence as well too, and that's at Dave Roberts 301, and the 301 is March 1st. That's my daughter's transition month and day of transition, so they can find me on YouTube as far as how they can get in touch with me. Otherwise, my son calls me the world's oldest millennial, so you can find me on Facebook, you can find me on Instagram, you can find me on LinkedIn. You can go to my personal website, which is davidrobertsmswcom, and the book website, psychologyprofessorandministercom. I will also give you the link to Amazon if individuals are interested in purchasing the book either in Kindle or, you know, paperback format.

Dave Roberts:

And one of the things that that book is a lot of people are going to be surprised, I think is the transparency of both myself and Patty. For me, you're going to get to know me very well, my spiritual journey, who I was, who I am now and the person that I am still becoming. You know if you read that you read that book. And the book is a short book. It's less than 200 pages. It's designed to be a quick but captivating read, and the reviews that we've gotten on our website and on Amazon have indicated that there's a lot of food for thought. There's a lot of great information that can help individuals integrate psychology and spirituality, good information about science and serendipity. So it's a book that has something for everybody.

Alethea Felton:

Wow, and I will also include your contact info and the links and things in the show notes. But as a final closing question, dave and I kind of asked you this in just a conversation outside of here, but I'd love for you to answer it here as well. What do you think Janine would say if she were in front of you right now and seeing this life that you have created for yourself? What would her reaction be?

Dave Roberts:

I think she would probably say to me it's about time you listened to me, old man. That's exactly what she would probably say, because she had a really, really kind of cool sense of humor. We used to just cut up on each other all the time, but I think what she would also say to me is I'm very proud in terms of the person you've become. I'm very proud in the work that you're doing to help others and Don, or all parts of who you are. I'm very proud that I chose you to be my father, and I'm also very proud that she chose me to be her father, and I'm also very proud that I chose her to be my daughter.

Alethea Felton:

Dave, it has truly been an honor having you here. Ever since we met, it has just been almost, in a sense, like kindred spirits, and I am so thankful and honored that you've taken time today to be a part of this Power Transformation Podcast community and movement, and I hope and pray the best for you and your family, and we will, of course, keep in touch as the months and years go on. But thank you again, dave, for guesting us with your presence.

Dave Roberts:

Well, thank you, Alethea, for the privilege of being on your podcast and it was just a great conversation and I look forward to having one.

Alethea Felton:

I also invite you to connect with me on social media at Alethea Felton, that's at A-L-E-T-H-E-A-F-E-L-T-O-N. Until next time, remember to be good to yourself and to others.